Talk:Achmed
For the record, I really feel that Achmed can be identified, and that his status is dead. There was only one terrorist who was clearly of Middle Eastern descent; this man was also seen getting shot to hell during the raid. But this is all deductive reasoning, which isn't particularly encyclopedic, so I played it safe and didn't include the pic or deceased status. – Blue Rook 09:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)talk :I'd say this man has to be Achmed. Him and Beresch's lieutenant were searching for Chevensky - Beresch then instructed them two to search the other rooms for him. All the other terrorists were in the main hostage area. Achmed isn't the name for Beresch's lieutenant, so surely this guy has to be the one who found Chevensky?--Acer4666 16:02, May 13, 2011 (UTC) :: It's possible but what certainty is there for sure? 03:35, May 16, 2011 (UTC) :::Well it's just this guy was ordered to look for Chevensky, and then never seen again until Achmed had found him, whereas all the other guys at the airport stayed in the main room. I guess it's the same logic we assume Cobb was one of the guys who came out of the van, as opposed to someone who turned up in different transport and left in different transport - it could be that Achmed was an unseen guy that searched for Chevensky of his own volition, but I think it's very likely that the man who was ordered to look for Chevensky found him. It is a slight assumption, but there are other such assumptions done elsewhere. :::Out of interest is this a different guy to who you thought it was?--Acer4666 08:42, May 16, 2011 (UTC) :: No this is a different fellow. Also, though I think it's likely that it was this dude who found The Chev, but it seems for me to be on looser ground than some other stuff we've deduced. 21:50, June 5, 2011 (UTC) ::: I'm hoping to go through the roster of Ontario Airport terrorists in detail, so I may turn up some more evidence or a compelling argument that this is the guy what found the Chevmeister general. Stay tuned!--Acer4666 22:51, June 5, 2011 (UTC) ::::I have a bunch of pics from the Ontario Airport terrorists. I started uploading them for my talk page, so you can go through them. Thief12 00:10, June 6, 2011 (UTC) Just a thought - if we can't be sure that Achmed is the guy above, then I don't think we can be sure we saw him at all. We're never given a definitive number of terrorists at the airport - Jack says he can see "10-12", but this is just a guesstimate of how many he can see from his perch, much like Kevin Carroll's "15-20" at the Gaines Compound. We have Peterson (Day 1) down as a mentioned character, so I think the same should be done for Achmed. We can say that Ray and Lawrence appeared, because we were given a definite number of guards at the place and we saw that many people. We can just about manage Cobb, because 5 guys arrived and 5 guys left, although really we don't have anything to definitively state that no-one else arrived to chase Wayne. But I don't think Achmed can be treated like this--Acer4666 11:11, June 7, 2011 (UTC) : Hmm never thought of it that way, but you could very well be right. This is probably a dumb question, but: how many airport separatists appeared who were not in the van with Beresch? I always guessed that there were a few who were breakdancing at the airport before the van pulled up, but I never actually verified it. If the answer is 0, then we did see Achmed; if it's 1 or more, then what you're saying is possible. And I'm afraid to go frame by frame in the final airport shootout, given how inconsistent and weirdly-edited the Season 5 shootouts are turning out to be. 15:33, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::Haha I think the answer to how many joined the party after the van ride: cockloads. I think there was a "secondary team" that came by different transport, led by Danny Hebert, because Beresch looks over to a group entering by a different entrance. Randall Archer was never in the van, and loads of stunt guys appeared during the shootout that were never before seen. There's a large bloke, never seen at all, until he falls thru some glass and Jack takes a gun off him - I believe the same guy as I asked tom about here. I'm sure Thief's page will start to answer some of these questions--Acer4666 15:46, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::: Considering all that, it seems conceivable then that he was never seen (and was killed off-screen), and the only certain thing is that he was mentioned, so you can definitely make the changes. 16:36, June 7, 2011 (UTC) : You all might like a comprehensive breakdown of said airport shootout. I could upload photos of this if wanted, but for now, here's the text version. Let's start with the first 2 killed. 1. Ibrim is blown apart by his vest. 2. A terrorist with long hair, a beard, and wearing a brown jacket with blue shirt underneath is blown forward from the concussion and killed. Moving onto the next ep. THe second the shootout beings... 3. 2 terrorists with their backs to the main concourse (1 with grey jacket and bluish shirt and 1 with a brown sweatshirt wearing an explosive vest) are visibly gunned down by the SWAT team. another terrorist standing nearby, but he's not visibly killed in this shot. 4. 3 more terrorists (1 with long hair, a beard, and wearing a t-shirt with an explosive vest, 2 others wearing same) are also killed. 5. A large terrorist wearing a dark blue jacket is shot and falls through a window next to where Jack is standing. 6. Beresch's lieutenant and another terrorist (with long hair, black jacket and brown shirt) are both shot from behind. terrorist rushes forward but he's not visibly shot here. 7. Jack (using a gun he got from Kill #5) shoots a terrorist with a brown jacket and crewcut. 8. 2 more terrorists (1 wearing a light blue jacket, the other wearing dark blue) are both shot from the front. 9. Jack shoots another terrorist wearing a light blue jacket with a dark blue shirt underneath. 10. 1 additional terrorist (wearing dark brown jacket) seen lying dead in foreground. 11. The bald bearded terrorist from #3 shown lying dead also. 12. Another terrorist shown in a previous shot wearing a bluish jacket shown dead as well. During this time, Vlad is not shown killed, the terrorist played by Archer is also not shown visibly. Same goes for tis terrorist whom you take to be Achmed. Though given that they said all the terrorists had been killed, they probably where, but not explicitly shown. I hope this clears things up. --ASHPD24 17:44, June 7, 2011 (UTC) : I'm glad we're going through this. The terrorist who Acer took to be Achmed isn't seen killed, but I'm pretty sure that the guy I'' was talking about back at the top of the thread (in May 2007) is on the left in the first pair of separatists killed by CTU in the raid. Also, I'm 99% sure now that Jack's Season 5 Kill #7 is Vlad (!) The actual death scene is pretty hard to use for identification, so to make a comparison with the Vlad image on his page of him standing upright, you can see kill #7's body with legs spread wide directly near Jack in more than 1 angle, immediately before ''and after Beresch blows himself up. It's pretty clearly Vlad. 18:38, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::I've not gone through it properly, but I know that Jerry G. Angelo dies three times (twice by SWAT once by Jack). He's the "light blue jacket" that pops up thrice in your list. This is bad editing/re-using stunt men - I dunno if we wanna count him as playing 3 different people in-universe or chalk it down to continuity error.--Acer4666 18:45, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :::Why do y'all have to engage in this discussions when I'm still at work?? :-( I'm not sure I can verify the episode tonight, but I'll recheck all those airport episodes as soon as I can, and contribute whatever I can. I know I have a bunch of pictures of random airport terrorists on my home computer. It's just that I haven't been online that much to upload them. Thief12 18:50, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :: If Angelo is filmed in 3 different ways dying, then definitely it's meant to be 3 different characters, if it's the same footage, it's up for debate but I'd still argue it's three different kills too since it seems to be at least from as many different angles. 19:26, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::: LOL! I seriously doubt the directors/writers pay as much attention to these stuff as we do. Thief12 19:33, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :::: Haha sorry thief didn't realise you had dibs on any discussion about the ontario airport scenes! :P :::: I think it takes a bit of stretch to call Jerry Angelo 3 diff characters. In the shots beforehand, it's very clear that there are only 4 people in that area, one of which is wearing a light blue jacket. Do we assume 2 more different terrorists materialised in that area wearing exactly the same clothes just to reconcile an editors/stunt co-ordinators mistake? I'm not sure on this one--Acer4666 23:41, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ::::: Nah, not dibs, lol! it's just that I feel I can contribute more to the discussion cause I went through those episodes when I was working with the Project. But since I've been so busy lately, I really can't help you all that much for now. Probably tomorrow, or later in the week. :-( Thief12 04:33, June 8, 2011 (UTC) : In order to cut down on the cost of hiring so many people, they use the same stuntmen for different shots. It's different characters. That's not hard to believe at all. It is however hard to believe that the same guy gets shot, gets back up, gets shot again, gets back up again, and then gets shot a third time, all while being in different places. Not to mention, Jerry Angelo is wearing a very light blue jacket. The ones I've mentioned all wear a jacket similar to the crewcut separatist's. --ASHPD24 23:54, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :: I'm not saying we believe he got up again 3 times - I'm saying we call it a continuity error and don't acknowledge it as canon. It's hard to believe Andre and Alexis Drazen were born 5 months apart - in fact it's impossible, so we don't believe it, but just mention it in BGIN notes. And I again I still need to check this on the dvd, but I deinitely saw the same guy in the same clothes die 3 times--Acer4666 00:03, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::Also I love the way you've wilfully mixed up OOU and IU explanations to support your argument in that last post--Acer4666 00:10, June 8, 2011 (UTC) : Because, with all honesty, this is the same as saying that the crewcut separatist, and 2 of his buddies during 9:00pm were actually all the same guy because they had the same jacket and shirt underneath. Just grew his hair out a bit longer. And please note that you didn't address the fact that's it not Angelo getting killed, nor that it was 3 different locations he was getting shot at. Not the same guy. It's 3 different people wearing similar jackets. It happens everywhere, in many many episodes. Unless you can answer those, there's no basis for this arguement. --ASHPD24 00:57, June 8, 2011 (UTC) I think the only way we can consider it a continuity error is if it's the exact same shot re-used three times, if it was the same shot re-filmed three times, or the same shot filmed once from three different angles. Otherwise, it's the same actor playing three different characters, even if they look the same. --proudhug 01:12, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :Sorry I will address whether or not it's jerry angelo once I've had chance to check the dvd, I'm going off memory at the minute but may be wrong. It's not the same as the crewcut separatist though - throughout the episode, 4 of Bierko's henchmen were in the control room. 3 of them were seen getting shot, crewcut wasn't. I don't think they were wearing the same jacket--Acer4666 08:03, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::Whereas in the airport, for all the run up to the shootout, there were four guys seen there, of which only one was wearing a light blue jacket. There was no-one else around in that area, until this guy appeared twice more. These shootouts are very hard to judge canonically with people appearing and disappearing all over the shop--Acer4666 08:05, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::: If anyone's interested, here are pics of the three different shots of Jerry dying. The first two are the same shot split in half, the last one is the same performance shot from a different angle (the position of his arms, his jacket, legs, everything is the same)--Acer4666 19:14, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :: Well the third Jerry death is Jack's second kill (File:BereschMinions 3.jpg), so that's definitely a different kill for sure. As for the 1st and 2nd ones, it could be the same character standing back up or something, you might have a case with those 2 together. 19:31, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::I know the third kill is Jack's and the first are the swat teams' but it still leaves the gaping contradiction that a different IU character materialised out of thin air in the same position and wearing the same clothes as the terrorist that had just died--Acer4666 19:36, June 8, 2011 (UTC) : It isn't as gaping a contradiction as either of us wants it to be; it unfortunately happens all the time. The fact that the show is in real time makes it extremely difficult to argue instances when the same stunt guy dies multiple times in 1 scene. The only time I've ever been convinced that a death is just "shown twice" and not a "new death" was during the CTU Sentox gassing; all other instances of the "same guy dying more than once" is just a new death with a note that points out the continuity issue. 19:56, June 8, 2011 (UTC) Back on topic Perhaps the above discussion may be best being continued at Talk:Deaths on 24 or some place. I've been thinking about the achmed ident, and I doubt I'm gonna find any new evidence from watching the episodes, but I still feel confident enough that the above man is him. Basically, he is told to look for Chevensky, and then he is reported to have found him. What makes me more certain is the fact that clearly, none of the other terrorists knew of the key card, or Chevensky. It was highly secretive among the terrorists there - this is evidenced by the fact Beresch secretly passed it to Ivan Erwich, that a guard didn't know not to pick Erwich, and the way the leuitenant takes Beresch to one side and quietly whispers about Achmed having found chevensky. Beresch, leuitenant and Achmed were obviously working by themselves without the knowledge of the other terrorists, in order to carry out the key card part of the operation. I'd say it's a bigger assumption to say that the unseen Achmed was someone other than the guy above, as only two guys came in to look for Chevensky, and to start involving other people in the secretive sub-group amongst the terrorists seems counter-intuitive. I would include a BGIN going something like this: "Achmed was first seen in Day 5: 9:00pm-10:00pm being ordered to look for Chevensky by Beresch's leuitenant. Due to the secretive nature of the Chevensky/key card part of Beresch's operation, it is clear no-one else would have been looking for Chevensky, therefore when Achmed is named as having found him (in the following episode) it must be the man who was ordered to look for him."--Acer4666 11:35, June 8, 2011 (UTC) : Isn't it possible that Achmed was just another dude who was merely looking around for hiding hostages, and stumbled upon The Chev's body? The key card may not have been found by Achmed at all, either, it could have been found by the Lieutenant, because the latter said "Chevensky had it hidden right where he said he would" not "Achmed found the key card". 19:31, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :: Hmmm...ok...I'll keep thinking about this one...do you think it's worth a BGIN?--Acer4666 19:36, June 8, 2011 (UTC) : Sure I'd say a BGIN is suitable in this situation. 19:56, June 8, 2011 (UTC) Just went through this episode and wanted to clarify that Beresch's lieutenant is the one that picks Ivan Erwich to be executed, until Beresch tells him not to. So, whatever inside thing he was in with Beresch, it didn't include him knowing about Erwich. Thief12 23:43, June 11, 2011 (UTC) :My bad - perhaps all the guards knew about chevensky/key card, but beresch never told them what he would do with it. Also, leuitenant quietly whispers everything he says to beresch, so my argument above was pretty much all non-existant haha--Acer4666 23:50, June 11, 2011 (UTC)